Curse

freekedoutfish · Nov 16, 2007, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Ok, the idea here is that as a "community" we should try and define what "grind" is and covers within GuildWars. There are numerious threads bouncing around that complain about factor x being grind and factor y being grind.

Then you get someone else saying factor x isnt grind, but factor y is. The someone else says factor y is grind, but factor x isnt.

We also have people who cant even agree on what exactly grind defines!

Some way that grind is any activity you have to repeat, and which you dont want to. Some say grind is an activity outside of the storyline which you are forced into doing. Some say that grind is when you are pressured into doing something you dont like.

The list goes on and it gets more and more and more vague or broad!

Can we try to define two things

1) What does grind actually cover in GWs (i.e what requires grind ingame)?
2) What do we all percieve as the meaning of grind, in relation to Guild Wars?

If anyone feels those questions are detailed enough, make a suggestion and I will change them, or add another one related to definitions. I accept my spelling and gramma isnt great.

Update

So far we have grind being defined as something which is...

1) Repetative.
2) Boring (i.e you dont enjoy doing it).
3) Compulsary (i.e needs to be done to progress ingame).
4) Achieves an end result.

Zeek Aran · Nov 16, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Allegiance titles.

And that's it.

Not rep [since the book update] and not SS/LB [it takes less than a week].

Avarre · Nov 16, 2007, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Grind is the completing of a repetitive task, to a point where the only major consideration is reward/time and not difficulty.

Farming is grind (PvE missions are not).
Alliance titles are grind (though AB is not).
Most PvE titles are grind (cartography/guardian are not).

Sometimes this depends on the mindset - for example Hero title can be grind to one player who plays purely to raise rank, and not grind for another who plays to win halls. They both achieve the same thing, but their focus is different.

All imo.

thezed · Nov 16, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Good luck on this.

Some people seem to think that anything that requires hard work is grind.

lyra_song · Nov 16, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

a grind is anything you do thats not fun that takes up a lot of time.

Fun being the keyword.

like....working everyday from 9-5.

When i was playing RO, somedays it felt like a grind, somedays it felt so thrilling and fun. It depended on my mood for leveling up.

This covers everything in GW. Leveling up, getting armor, collecting materials, money, missions, quests, titles, etc.

Antheus · Nov 16, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

It's defined by completing a task/advancing not through an action that encompasses the entire task, but by achieving a very small, yet completely identical goal a large number of times.

Storyline titles (protector, guardian, vanquisher, cartographer) are not grind. Each portion of the title is unique.

Grind titles are chest and identification titles, faction, sunspear, LB, reputation tracks. These titles are advanced solely and exclusively through collection of points. While there are books and quest rewards, the primary path through those is by killing mobs over and over.

Reputation titles wouldn't be considered a grind, if you would max them out by completing the storyline.

Farming is grind.

Sweet tooth and drunkard are also grind, as well as all the pvp titles.

Another easy definition of a grind in PvE is: if a bot can do it more *efficiently * than a human, it's grind. Farming, faction, reputation, drunkard and sweet tooth titles all fall under this. So does identification of items - hence it's bots that are selling them in bulk.

Quote:

Some people seem to think that anything that requires hard work is grind.

Some people have incorrect perception of what hard work is. Working 16 hour shifts flipping burgers is not hard work. It's mindless work.

Hard work is getting yourself to be a respected member of community through valuable contributions. Hard work is winning world championships. Hard work is becoming one of richest people in GW. Hard work is putting up a high profile fan site. Hard work is being moderator of such site. Hard work is dealing with online gaming communities.

Accomplishing anything in game that is provided for by the game mechanic itself however is never hard work. It's a goal to be attained and passed.

I like to evaluate the impact of grind in a game by removing the grind.

Which aspect of GW wouldn't change if you remove a certain leveling/progression from the game? Let's say we remove leveling up. Is the PvE affected? PvP? What about reputation titles? How much value would GW:EN retain? What about grind in PvP? What if you entered the game with UAX. Is there still any value left?

Think of an in-game progression, then remove it. The true quality of game is what remains. Do that for WoW.

Aera Lure · Nov 16, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Grind is the completing of a repetitive task, to a point where the only major consideration is reward/time and not difficulty.

Farming is grind (PvE missions are not).
Alliance titles are grind (though AB is not).
Most PvE titles are grind (cartography/guardian are not).

Sometimes this depends on the mindset - for example Hero title can be grind to one player who plays purely to raise rank, and not grind for another who plays to win halls. They both achieve the same thing, but their focus is different.

All imo.

This is my definition to a tee. "Fun" has no place in the definition of grind. Grind is simply a neutral, repetitive task where one is spending time seeking a reward. Doesnt matter if you are enjoying doing it or not, as there is some grind that is fun and some that is not. It depends on the game mechanics associated with said grind. Most games have some manner of grind. Grind isnt in and of itself a negative term.

Phoenix Tears · Nov 16, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Grind is, when you do something ever and ever again, somethign that is totally boring, but the only way to archive something you want to have.

Example: you want to level your Character to lvl 100 ...therefore you go hunt monsters for weeks ... there is the grind...you have to do it for so long time, doing ever and ever the same stuff, killing same monsters, because they are the lonely ones mostly, which are quite easy to kill, but give decent good exp... and why takes this ages ?

cause of 2 factors:
1. Enemies just give in overall to less Exp.
2. the exp needed to reach a next level raises far too quick to havily, so that you end up, killing strong monsters and getting only like +0,2% more towards your next level, not enough quests, which give good exp and so on...

that are the 2 reasons, why leveling in bad mmorpgs takes ages and why the player has then the feeling of having endless grind and gettign quick bored

now Anet comes in, cutted only only to max lvl 20, and gives players tooo much exp with short lines for reachin the next level ... game ended up, that players could be max level withing 1 day ..thats also shit ....

now the solution comes with GW2...

hopefully Anet gives us a good max level of 100, and quests, and monster exp, are very well balanced, so that leveling a character to lvl 100 takes not only 1 day... a player should need like say 30 days to reach max level, thats ok ... and i really don't think too much for casual gamers .... naturally 30 days of active gaming and training your character, playing the game, making quests, missiuons ect.

RO shows us, how bad experience balancing looks ...there you need to reach level 100 like 3+ months or so, when you play on a normal rated server and there you have really the feeling of playing a typical asiagrinder, once you receive for killed stuff only very small %, and when you want have bigger %, u have to kill then enemies, that are then alot strogner then you and mostly aren't killable, as long you have not parts of the best gears with best cards in and high refined ect.
RO has certain very good concepts, that are better then GW, like the Class System about Evolution, instead of a dumb 2 class system, that poops out only "wannabes", but RO isnt by far perfect, neither RO2.

lots of our titles wouldnt be such big grind, when they would be finally account based..

imo it would be best, when all titles would be than, because then you have to concentrate only once in archiving them and when you have them, then you can concentrate playing something different, like HA, or GvG's and AB's...
but with this change would start only lots of people whining for nothing, because of being to selfish to see in, that such a change would improve the general gameplay, making the game more fun again and no grind fest, where u have to do most titles for every chara, like HoM is also only a big grind point, as long it doesn't get changed into an account based feature, what woukld make much more sense ...

making the stuff Accoutn based would also motivate players more, to play with more characters, then only with 1 main character, which should try to archive all titles

titles like Drunken are pure grind...you need only to farm endless for gold, until you have enough gold for all the alcohol you need to max the title..
same with sweet tooth...

race titltes are also grind, because you don't get them maxed through normal playing...you have to go in either x times into dungeons, to to make x times kill runs to gain the points ...
or you try to complete books, sure this way is no grind, but it takes lots of time to complete such books, with a stagnating community, that doesn't really pug active for dungeons...try findign ingame pugs for dungeons, for nearly all ones you can search you dumb and sill,y until you#ve found a complete group for a dungeon ... and why ? because GW:En is still to imbaanced and the dungeons are absolutely not interesting enough for people, cause of crap loot, which is in no way "high end" as like promoted

people prefer more farming for dumb destroyer cores ect. for their special gloves ect. then making dungeons ... i say this should be changed and the farming focus for all that stuff should be brought to the dungeons, so that destroyer cores ect. should drop only out of dungeon chests ..
then people would do dungeons again ...because their farming focus would change then onto the dungeons, which are in the end the main feature of GW:En not these stupid special gloves ect.

However, i think Anet made enough fails over time, that destroyed totally the general gamefeeling, players had, as GW was released ... grind titles, grind armor parts and imba pve are only some big parts of it........

Pandora's box · Nov 16, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

What is the use of this? Do you want to forbid grinding?

Oh c'mon, its live and let live. Why would someone care if players like to perform repetitive actions for a title or gold? Just let it be man...

Whisper Evenstar · Nov 16, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

I think grind is when you are forced to do something over and over again to get something you HAVE TO HAVE to be competitive in the game.

There is grind in GW, but you don't have to do any of it - its all optional.

thunderai · Nov 16, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

There are only two things I consider grind.

1). Having to have 10,000 faction to continue in Factions, and;
2). Istan

Aera Lure · Nov 16, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

Grind is, when you do something ever and ever again, somethign that is totally boring, but the only way to archive something you want to have.

Not imho. Like I said, and Avarre before me, its simply a repetitive action towards a goal. Whether its boring or not is in part the player and in part the game design of said activity.

Most console RPGs and RPGs in general have had a lot of grind. I've played quite a lot of them as probably most of us have. For a good number of them, leveling up or earning funds to move on was actually quite fun. For some, not so much. In both cases though, it was "grind". Cant really attach "fun" or "boring" to a definition of grind. I've really enjoyed grind in some games and very much disliked it in others. Pretty much all games employ some of it. The important thing is how its used.

For Guild Wars, actions to complete a number of titles are very repetitive. The goal at the end is some text beneath our feet, for the most part, and sometimes an added duration or damage quotient to a skill for those select PvE titles. Imho, the mechanics associated with titles in GW are really just geared towards spending a lot of time in the game, for little or no real reward, hence the negative association of grind and titles to some. It still does not define "grind" as a whole as negative. Its more just the GW title mechanics of the level and item/skill power caps, since there really isnt anything else to which to attach time spent on titles reward-wise.

The gameplay titles in GW were fun to me. Some others not so much. I go back and forth on how I feel about GW titles, but it really depends on the player.

Yakumo · Nov 16, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Grind is completing a repetitive and tedious task, to a point where you just loose interest in the game.

My hated grind is trying to get a green from a boss. It starts of as challenging and fun, but as soon as I've done it x number of times, it becomes very boring with no end in sight.

It stops being fun when I start to question 'How many more times?', and it's definitively grind when it does drop and rather than an ecstatic 'Yay, it dropped!', it's a bitter 'ABOUT F**KING TIME!'.

It'll be nice if there was a way to make it challenging, without it becoming a time consuming bore.

Mordakai · Nov 16, 2007, 03:08 PM // 15:08

I think freekedoutfish's point was that with all these "grind" complaints, there is no standard definition of "grind."

It's very hard to have substantial discussions on topics when everyone has a different interpretation of what a word even means!

From wikipedia:

"Grinding is a pejorative term used in computer gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game.[1] The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs and JRPGs, most often Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. Grinding can also appear in other games in which features can be unlocked."

I don't think "grind" is a neutral term as some here suggest. It has a negative association.

Otherwise, all games employ a certain amount of repetitive gameplay, therefore all games are grind? No, it's only when said gameplay becomes non-entertaining that it becomes true grind, and that state is a subjective one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderai

There are only two things I consider grind.

1). Having to have 10,000 faction to continue in Factions, and;
2). Istan

LOL, proving my point.

zwei2stein · Nov 16, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Grind is what stands between you and fun content and what takes more than X amount of time.

Since everyones definition of what is fun is different and X can range from 1 hour to months, its not even academic discussion.

lyra_song · Nov 16, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Grind is what stands between you and fun content and what takes more than X amount of time.

Since everyones definition of what is fun is different and X can range from 1 hour to months, its not even academic discussion.

Exactly.

Thats why my definition is just Grind = Timeconsuming + Not Fun

What could be fun content for someone (like mindlessly farming...which is very relaxing btw) would be a grind to someone else.

Some people might consider running around their GH while the character is drunk and on sugar for hours at a time with no real purpose to be fun.
Some people consider ALL of PvE a grind (PvPers who Balthazar faction was made for, im looking at you).

Avarre · Nov 16, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Exactly.

Thats why my definition is just Grind = Timeconsuming + Not Fun

What could be fun content for someone (like mindlessly farming...which is very relaxing btw) would be a grind to someone else.

Well, I can agree, having farmed an immense amount. When I farm for an item, I consider it grinding. When I farm just because I don't feel like doing anything, or to just relax when I get home, I don't. No goal, no target, no care, no grind. More of a glide, you might say.

In the same way there are people who play HA/GvG as a grind for points, and those who just play to play. Grind is forced into a game when it becomes necessary to complete repetitive tasks for a compulsory goal. Guild Wars did not have this in Prophecies - all the grind was optional for people who either enjoyed it or wanted something to pass time.

A PvP'er, as Lyra mentioned, may see all of PvE as a grind because to them, it's just a question of how many monsters and missions they have to go through until they get the skills they need. I know this feeling from prepping PvE characters for PvE.

It's incredibly subjective, and the only way to prevent a player from being subjected to it is not make any of it required to complete the game. Prophecies had that right.

bel unbreakable · Nov 16, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

its just a state of mind really
i have maxed out 25 of my titles on my derv
also played over 2 years on all chars and never come across grind
on the other hand i tryed ab for a while and got mind numbed by waiting 20mins just to enter battle each time i try it

Crom The Pale · Nov 16, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Grind is the completing of a repetitive task, to a point where the only major consideration is reward/time and not difficulty.

Farming is grind (PvE missions are not).
Alliance titles are grind (though AB is not).
Most PvE titles are grind (cartography/guardian are not).

Sometimes this depends on the mindset - for example Hero title can be grind to one player who plays purely to raise rank, and not grind for another who plays to win halls. They both achieve the same thing, but their focus is different.

All imo.

This is the perfect deffinition of grind imho.

The word 'fun' does not belong in this disscusion for the reason above, its a subjective discription that differs from person to person. ie, farming is grind, not fun if you are only doing it to achive a single goal and will never do it again(FOW armor), but some find it fun and have a goal of building wealth continually.

Grind exists in every game, but is perception is only noticable when it is taken to extremes. ie. repeating a task 3 times is grind but not as noticable as repeating that same task 50 times.

Mordakai · Nov 16, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

ie. repeating a task 3 times is grind but not as noticable as repeating that same task 50 times.

But all games are "grind" then. Building bases in RTS = grind?

Shooting opponents in FPS = grind?

Killing monsters in Guild Wars = grind?

It's not the repetitive task that is grind, it's also whether you "enjoy" it or not... (and I honestly think sometimes people expect too much from what is a game)

Going back to wiki's: "Grinding is a pejorative term used in computer gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game."

I think that's an important part: in the examples listed above, "grind" is most frustrating when it's the only way to access other parts of the game. Games that have multiple solutions to problems help avoid this. (ie, Starting with completed bases in a campaign RTS, or being able to avoid enemies in a shooter)